In June, Sony asked Hideo Kojima to attend a Zoom call. At the time, he was busy working on Xbox game OD and PlayStation game Physint, the latter a spiritual successor to the video game series that made him one of the most celebrated developers on the planet: Metal Gear Solid.
For the meeting, he brought along Kojima Productions president Shinji Hirano and head of talent development Aki Saito. Kojima tells IGN in his first interview since last week’s dramatic news that he was so stunned by what Sony told him that his mind went blank. PlayStation was pulling out of the Physint project, and funding for it would end. And that was that.
Kojima initially kept the news from his staff at Kojima Productions as he worried over the future of his company. Would he have to let developers from the Physint team go? Would they leave anyway, given what had happened? What would the bank, whose loans helped Kojima Productions staff up after the release of Death Stranding, think? And what about all the actors he’d already scanned for Physint? Was this a P.T. situation all over again?
As we know, Kojima convinced Microsoft and new Xbox boss Asha Sharma to pick up Physint in one of the most dramatic console switches in history. Now the previous PlayStation exclusive may not release on PlayStation at all.
In our interview, Kojima tells IGN Japan’s Daniel Robson how he feared Kojima Productions might collapse as a result of Sony's decision, and details his game-saving pitch to Xbox, which was quick to snap Physint up.
It’s important to note that the interview was conducted before Bloomberg’s report that Sony ditched Physint due to missed deadlines, budget concerns, and Death Stranding’s alleged commercial failings. Kojima Productions provided a statement to IGN, which appears at the end of this interview, following a request for comment. In it, Kojima Productions insists the studio is "in a healthy, profitable state, development for Physint continues to move forward with Xbox, and our relationship with PlayStation remains strong."
Hideo Kojima: We are an independent company, so no funding is behind us as a corporation. We sign contracts according to projects, and that's how we survive one by one as an indie. So I need to find a new project before the previous project ends, and that's how we stay alive. That's our background situation.
So in June, SIE said they wanted to have a Zoom call. I was so busy at that time — I had just gone to New York for a Prada event and then to LA right after. But anyway, I came back and we had this Zoom call.
They said they can no longer fund development for Physint. I was shocked and I said, "What did you say?" I couldn’t quite process what they had said. I wasn’t sure because I was in shock.
Anyway, I know there's a lot of news in the game industry that many studios are closing down, many titles are canceled, and I understand the situation in the industry as a whole. But I thought Physint was okay. That Physint was safe. So I was surprised. But not just surprised. We didn’t understand the reason. I didn't have any anger or sadness; my first thought was, “What am I going to do with my studio?” Because we signed contracts for projects. Of course I had OD, but I only have two projects in my studio: OD and Physint. And I hire according to how many projects we have, and we have two. If we lose one contract, I thought I might have to cut all the people working on Physint, right? Or our studio could end up collapsing because we’ll run out of cashflow.
I’ve borrowed money from the bank for funding as well. At first [when we established the studio] they didn't listen to us at all. After a while when we got a title out, they were like, "We'll lend you money." If they find out that a project has been stopped or canceled, we'd be in big trouble. So my mind went blank when SIE told me. I don't remember so much of that meeting, to be honest with you. And my colleagues probably don't remember as well, so I can't really answer if you ask me what exactly they said.
Nothing could’ve prepared me for their decision to step away from the project. So I thought, "What am I going to do from tomorrow?" But from my side, I love Sony. And I don't have any bad feelings against them because I know that it's a tough time in the game industry.
I've been working with them for like 30 years… Mr. Ken Kutaragi, Mr. Hirai, I was close with them. But it's not like that recently. I realized that, okay, this is the reality. It's the 10th anniversary of my studio. My studio might collapse, right?
But the number one priority is my staff. We have about 200 people, and I expanded because we had Physint. They are talented, of course. And some of them came to my studio from big corporations. I warned them it might not be a good idea to do so… But anyways, I needed to protect these important staff. I’ve also begun scanning actors for the project and also speaking with artists about collaborating for Physint. I can't really tell them the game has been canceled. I didn't want to do the same thing we did for P.T. Of course, I didn't want them to worry.
For me personally, it’s the 10th anniversary of the studio and also my 40th anniversary of creating games, so that's why I put so much on Physint. It’s like a culmination of the two. During the pandemic, I was a little unwell and I thought about how much time I have left. I really thought that I would give my all to Physint at this point in my career. I really wanted to continue this project even after that meeting. I was thinking, "What should I do?"
Another big thing I thought about is that, I became independent and made my own studio, and a lot of people have done the same. But, no one has been super successful, no matter where they are in the world. But I believe that the trend of this era should be one in which creators can do their own independent projects and become big. But if Kojima Productions collapses, that doesn’t follow this trend at all. It’s a step backwards for indies. So I needed to stand firm and continue this project. My mind went blank, but I decided to think, “Okay, understood,” and became determined to continue Physint in some way.
True story: after the meeting, the first thing I did was, I came back to my desk, and I started to write and add a little bit more to the concept for Physint. What had just happened was a big thing, a big incident. And so I decided to just keep it between the three of us [Hideo Kojima, Shinji Hirano and Aki Saito] for now, and we didn’t tell the staff, because we needed to figure out a direction before telling anyone. So in the next couple of days, we were always thinking about teaming up with first-parties, but I thought maybe we could change directions. Maybe we could team up with third-party or other partners.
I thought just bringing a pitch of a game title and saying, "Can you fund this?” is a very old-fashioned way of doing things… Instead, I thought that the way to go was to say, “I'm making this new IP, and I want to consider everything like movies, dramas, anime, TV, comics, music. Let's create a new IP with all of this included." I was thinking about who to pitch to, and I was thinking of not just the game industry, but the movie industry, movie studios, and also streaming companies and things like that. Because in the end, I think because we're all digital, these industries are all coming together with games in some form.
So I started approaching people and everyone had positive reactions, so I had a good feeling about it. But I also thought, it's not just the money we needed. We also needed technical support, marketing support, holding playtests and things like that. And we can't do this all internally. So I was thinking, who could support all this?
I approached Xbox and they were great. They could support us technically. And also we've been working on OD with them, so we already had a connection. I made a proper pitch of Physint to them. And then their first reaction was like, "This pitch was fantastic. Never seen a pitch like this!" And that's how it started with Xbox.
I couldn't tell my staff until we decided on a new partner. But three days after the meeting with SIE, I called the leaders of the Physint team, and I explained the situation to them. But I also said, "I'm going to go find a new partner, so don't worry." But at the same time, because of the cancellation of the project, I had to make the Physint team smaller and move some people to the OD team.
And then the following week, I was very worried. I thought people would leave. But I had told them to create material for a pitch for Physint. And when I went into work the following week, very worried they might not be motivated, I went to go see the team, and they were happily creating this pitch for me and having a great time. So I thought, wow, I have really tough people here. So I was really happy about that. I was surprised.
And then we've been just negotiating with Xbox. And the Physint team still exists and we're continuing to experiment with the game. And before the announcement yesterday, we disclosed internally to all staff, and it was quite calm. Everyone received it very well. So that was a happy surprise too. So it's calm internally. They were like, "Oh, we can still work on it, so that's great! Okay."
IGN: When you moved staff to OD, did they come back later? Did you lose any staff?
Hideo Kojima: No. I predicted that people might leave, but no one did. For example, the OD team could’ve said, "Oh, we don't want the Physint team!” because the Physint team is made up of old veterans. That's a joke, of course! But anyway, we're actually doing very well internally.
IGN: Did production stop at any point?
Hideo Kojima: So the work didn’t stop. I'm still doing the concept. How I create the game is a little unique. The world, the game system, scenario, the visuals, the design, modeling, I'm still doing that. I'm still casting and also doing scans for the actors. But the game system for the new technology, like enemy AI and stuff, I'm still experimenting on all of this. I have to change the story depending on how the game experiment works. So it's not like we're ready to go, or like it's like a big team already. It's more like a very small team that remained for the crucial parts, and all the others moved to OD.
There wasn’t much of a delay or anything because it was a very minor change. Of course, if I had a full team on the Physint project, it would be faster. But the animation team is mainly on OD. But the animation, the motion, and things like that will of course change later to the actor’s movements, once we start doing performance capture. So right now, it's in there for the sake of experimenting. I'm working on it every day still.
IGN: Did you have to change the engine or anything like that (is it Decima?)?
Hideo Kojima: Well, I haven't really decided yet. I'm still experimenting.
After we decided to team up with Xbox, they said they will give us a lot of technological support. When I went to visit them during the Don Mattrick days, they had so many labs and everything, and they were experimenting on so many things, like state of the art, new, really new, cutting-edge technology. I was really surprised. I was thinking, “There are so many Doc Browns from Back to the Future here!” So I want to use all this new technology. Anything that I can use, I want to use, and I'm looking forward to teaming up with Xbox, but I really haven't decided about the engine.
IGN: You wrote on X that you found a “common vision” with Xbox — what was that vision?
Hideo Kojima: The biggest thing was, they're not thinking of just funding a game. They're thinking about movies and anime. It's more about the IP. Let's create a new IP. And that's bigger in scale, so to speak. And not many other game publishers or game developers have that kind of vision.
I haven't talked to them specifically, but Nintendo is doing something similar for Mario and Zelda with movies, attractions, and things like that. But I think that's how Xbox sees it as well. Because it's not the era of just game consoles. You create an IP, and it can be a game or a movie or music, and everything comes together. You can expand it to merchandising, too. And probably the next thing will be AR and stuff, and that would really affect our everyday lives in the future. And Nintendo has found great success with Super Mario at Universal Studios, with live attractions. So I think they were thinking of all this, probably. And I thought that really matches my vision of the future.
IGN: OD was commissioned under Phil Spencer, but how were the discussions with Asha Sharma and her team this time?
Hideo Kojima: Well Phil, I had a long relationship with him. He’s like a buddy, right? Just like Mr. Ken Kutaragi. I was sad when Phil retired, and at that time, I didn't know Asha very well yet. I went to Redmond back in April, and I talked with her. She is quite young, but we kind of clicked, and I felt that she was going to be a promising CEO. So that's the feeling I got. That was back in April. And then I felt like it was going to be a new Xbox. It's not just a changing of the CEOs, it was more like the structure. And I think that they're looking and envisioning the future, probably.
IGN: Xbox first-party games are sometimes also multiplatform. Will Physint still come out on PlayStation?
Hideo Kojima: I don’t know the answer to that – that would be a question for Xbox. But I don't know for sure. In previous updates from Xbox, I thought that they have this kind of stance where they want to deliver to as many gamers as possible, no matter what the platform is. I think all of that will be announced at a later time. I'm not sure yet, and I can't really say.
IGN: You said Sony gave no reason for cancelling the game, but did they clarify this later? What was the reason?
Hideo Kojima: No, not at all. They haven't contacted me ever since. But I'm not fighting with Sony. We're not in a dispute. But what I want to say is that we've been together for 30 years and we have this relationship. So if this was the conclusion, I would've wanted to hear it a little earlier. But that meeting in June, they just gave us the final notice.
As I said, my mind went blank, so I didn't really ask a lot of questions. It was more like, what should I do with my company? So that was what was on my mind at the time. I've always been a big Sony fan. I've been using a Walkman. All my cameras are Sony. So I have no bad feelings towards them.
IGN: Who from Sony told you they were pulling funding? Was it Hermen Hulst?
Hideo Kojima: I can’t say. You would have to ask them.
IGN: Was there ever a time when you lost confidence in Physint? What was your lowest ebb?
Hideo Kojima: No, never for Physint. It’s a new game, but...I have to say this very carefully: anything espionage is going to be fun, period, no matter what game it is. Death Stranding is a delivery game. People were like, "What? Delivery? What kind of a game is that?"
When I was working on DS2, and after OD was decided, I needed to think of the next project for after DS2. As I explained before, in order to keep the studio alive, I have to plan ahead and pitch for the next title, although that also means I can't direct a live action movie still. OD was going to be an edgy game, so for the next one, I was thinking of going even more extreme.
And then I was looking on the internet, and I get so many messages from people saying, "Please make another Metal Gear!" I wasn't really interested, because Metal Gear is the past. I want to do something new. But I saw so many people requesting it. And I was thinking, maybe I only have 10 years left. Of course, I can't make Metal Gear — that’s Konami’s IP. But I was thinking, "Okay, maybe I should create a new action espionage game." And I started to think about this new concept.
During that time, coincidentally, I was meeting with Jim Ryan, the former CEO of SIE. It was right before his retirement, I guess. I was talking to him, and he said, "Oh, that's a great idea. Let's create a new action espionage game." And we shook hands and that's how the partnership started.
The corporate structure of SIE is different from the Jim Ryan days. But this was a project that we were both excited about and mutually agreed on. So because of that, the shock was even bigger in June.
If I only have 10 years left, I have so many things I still want to do, so I want to prioritize and decide what I can do.
IGN: How do you feel about the project now and the future of Physint?
Hideo Kojima: I need to really finish Physint. I'm determined to do that. And also maybe a movie, live-action film for Physint. Usually it's like, a game comes out and then it turns into a movie, but I want to make that timeline even shorter. Same with Death Stranding. We released the game and then we began development on the anime and a live-action film. These days of digital production, we could actually kind of use the same assets for a movie and a game. But anyway, this has been reset to a new partner. But that's the feeling I have. I want to kind of expand the IP. Of course, I'll release the game first probably! I've been doing all the casting for the game and it's progressing well.
IGN: Bloomberg’s latest report around the cancellation of Physint suggests there were concerns around the success of Death Stranding, as well as Physint’s development timeline, budget and platform strategy. Did you have a response to any of that, and how you would characterize your relationship with PlayStation today?
Official Studio Statement:
You may have seen a recent article that mentions Kojima Productions, speculating on the reasons for the change in publishing partners for Physint.
Normally, we would not comment on unsubstantiated speculation on the internet, but these aspersions around our relationship with PlayStation, the commercial performance of the Death Stranding franchise, and the broader production planning and investment for Physint, have reached beyond the studio and have touched our fans, our creative partners, and colleagues we have worked alongside with for three decades.
None of the claims written came from any official or on-the-record source and as such we encourage you to take them with a dose of scepticism.
Make no mistake, this was a serious situation for the studio with a range of potentially significant implications. While we recognise that the article may have caused alarm, we want to reassure you all, for the record: that the studio is in a healthy, profitable state, development for Physint continues to move forward with Xbox, and our relationship with PlayStation remains strong.
Thank you for your continued support,
Kojima Productions
Photo by Rosdiana Ciaravolo/Getty Images.
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